Non-ionic detergents? - Certified SoftWash Roof Cleaning

Chad Eneix · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

Non-ionic detergents?

Tim Teed · SoftWash Systems 5-Star Professional

Don't worry about the specs. If you have already done a demo do you still have their contact info? I would reach out to that person to find out what they want. It may be that the price you gave them was out of their budget. It they like your price and like your process you may be able to submit based on product/service performance. If you are real good you can help them rewrite their spec on a performance basis so that SoftWash Systems will almost be a proprietary spec. Contractor to clean with pressure not to exceed......, contractor to rinse with Bleach Wash or equal, contractor to treat vegetation with Plant Wash or equal, Contractor must be SoftWash Systems Authorized or equal, Contractor must use Ask the Seal or equal etc.

AC Lockyer · Administrator

I will run the non-ionic item by our chemest. I am sure if Green Wash isnt we can make a custom surfactant for this project.

AC

Chad Eneix · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

Yes, Tim, this steering them toward SWS was what I had in mind. Problem is, they actually refuse to communicate in any way but through the bid portal on line. The person who I originally communicated with last year is gone, and this company (CBRE) is very good at putting up a wall. I'm confident my price was the best last time. I have about a half paragraph box to explain and sell my process over the others, we'll see how it goes, I am submitting it Monday. To give you an idea how specific they are in their bid, they suggested brands of buckets and brushes. The bid spec is 42 pages long.

AC, thanks, good to know. They specified detergents such as "Tergitol, Triton, or an approved equal."

Vic Irish · SoftWash Systems Certified Applicator

I have no idea what Non Ionic cleaner is, so did a Google search for some kind of clue.

I still have no idea, but think that they want a detergent that will leave the surface hydrophilic.

In window cleaning, hydrophilic is wonderful. Water just flows down the glass, as opposed to hydrophobic, where it beads all around and shows wet and dry spots on the freshly wetted surface.

But for some reason, they want the surface "charged" just so.

Hope this sheds a little light ;)

http://www.gbiosciences.com/ResearchProducts/Protein-Research/Detergents-and-Accessories/Non-Ionic-Detergents.aspx

Chad Eneix · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

My further research seems to indicate that non-ionic detergents don't leave a surface hydrophilic, it just means the detergent has no + or - charge. Dawn dish soap is non-ionic. It seems many people believe non-ionic cleaners are better at removing oily residue, although I have found this may not be the case. I think this customer has simply latched on to a cleaning industry buzzword, and has no idea what it will actually take to get their building clean. Essentially, what they are asking for is to spray on a weak surfactant only, then rinse with no more than 800 psi. This is a 170,000 square foot building, and one whole side of the building is black with algae. I am going to do my best to educate them on how we can do it significantly better. If I am unable to convince them, I will check back with them in a year or two, when they have spent almost $40K with someone else, and the building is still dirty.

Also, when mixed with SH or CH, any cleaning mix is highly ionic.

Vic Irish · SoftWash Systems Certified Applicator

Chad Eneix wrote:
My further research seems to indicate that non-ionic detergents don't leave a surface hydrophilic, it just means the detergent has no + or - charge. Dawn dish soap is non-ionic. It seems many people believe non-ionic cleaners are better at removing oily residue, although I have found this may not be the case. I think this customer has simply latched on to a cleaning industry buzzword, and has no idea what it will actually take to get their building clean. Essentially, what they are asking for is to spray on a weak surfactant only, then rinse with no more than 800 psi. This is a 170,000 square foot building, and one whole side of the building is black with algae. I am going to do my best to educate them on how we can do it significantly better. If I am unable to convince them, I will check back with them in a year or two, when they have spent almost $40K with someone else, and the building is still dirty.

Also, when mixed with SH or CH, any cleaning mix is highly ionic.

Nice reply, Chad. Thank you.

Wonder what they'd do if you guerilla cleaned your telephone number into the wall with all the black algae?

It's not graffiti, and it will probably be cleaner than whatever process they use to remove your telephone number...

In the 1 in a 1,000 chance you would actually do that, I hope you take before and after pictures! biggrin

vic

P.S.- No, I wouldn't do it, either...

AC Lockyer · Administrator

I'd go Terra Wash then it has no wax in it. Just detergent etc. Ill have more Monday though.

AC

Chad Haugen · Authorized Professional

According to our GW MSDS the actual surfactant is Amphoteric, notice this explanation from :
www.elementis-specialties.com/esweb/esweb.nsf/pages/surfactants-amphotericsurfactants

Amphoteric Surfactants

Amphoteric surfactants feature the intrinsic ability to change in charge from cationic via zwitterionic (net uncharged) to anionic going from low to high pH. Elementis Specialties produces two types of amphoteric compounds: alkyl iminopropionates and (amido)betaines..
Amphoteric surfactants function well in high electrolyte formulations and are compatible with all other classes of surfactants. They are very mild and have excellent dermatological properties, making them particularly suited for use in personal care and household cleaning products.

Or in other words they are neutral until acted upon .

Don't know if this helps but heres a list of surfactants :
LIST OF SURFACTANTS

ANIONIC TYPES
1. CARBOXYLATES 2. SULPHONATES 3. PETROLEUM SULPHONATES 3.ALKYLBENZENESULPHONATES 4. NAPHTHALENESULPHONATES 5. OLEFIN SULPHONATES 6. ALKYL SULPHATES 7. SULPHATES 8. SULPHATED NATURAL OILS & FATS.9. SULPHATED ESTERS 10. SULPHATED ALKANOLAMIDES 11. ALKYLPHENOLS, ETHOXYLATED & SULPHATED.

NONIONIC TYPE
1. ETHOXYLATED ALIPHATIC ALCOHOL 2.POLYOXYETHYLENE SURFACTANTS 3.CARBOXYLIC ESTERS 4. POLYETHYLENE GLYCOL ESTERS 5. ANHYDROSORBITOL ESTER & IT'S ETHOXYLATED DERIVATIVES 6. GLYCOL ESTERS OF FATTY ACIDS 7. CARBOXYLIC AMIDES 8. MONOALKANOLAMINE CONDENSATES 9. POLYOXYETHYLENE FATTY ACID AMIDES.

CATIONIC TYPE
1. QUATERNARY AMMONIUM SALTS 2. AMINES WITH AMIDE LINKAGES 3. POLYOXYETHYLENE ALKYL & ALICYCLIC AMINES 4.N,N,N',N' TETRAKIS SUBSTITUTED ETHYLENEDIAMINES 5. 2- ALKYL 1- HYDROXETHYL 2-IMIDAZOLINES.

AMPHOTERIC TYPE
AMPHOTERIC SURFACTANTS CONTAINS BOTH AN ACIDIC & A BASIC
HYDROPHILIC MOIETY IN THEIR SURFACE e.g.,
1. N -COCO 3-AMINOPROPIONIC ACID/ SODIUM SALT
2. N-TALLOW 3 -IMINODIPROPIONATE, DISODIUM SALT
3. N-CARBOXYMETHYL N DIMETHYL N-9 OCTADECENYL AMMONIUM HYDROXIDE.
4.N-COCOAMIDETHYL N HYDROXYETHYLGLYCINE, SODIUM SALT
etc.

AC Lockyer · Administrator

We did get word from our chemist that Green Wash is nonionic.

We are waiting to hear on our other chemicals.

AC

Vic Irish · SoftWash Systems Certified Applicator

AC Lockyer wrote:
We did get word from our chemist that Green Wash is nonionic.

We are waiting to hear on our other chemicals.

AC

AC, Chad Eneix mentioned earlier that "Also, when mixed with SH or CH, any cleaning mix is highly ionic."
Would you recommend using Green Wash as a stand alone biocide, then?

If one were to test it out, w/o bleach in a small spot, wonder how long for it to show some results?

Has anyone use GW as a standalone?

vic

AC Lockyer · Administrator

Vic Irish wrote:
AC Lockyer wrote:
We did get word from our chemist that Green Wash is nonionic.

We are waiting to hear on our other chemicals.

AC
AC, Chad Eneix mentioned earlier that "Also, when mixed with SH or CH, any cleaning mix is highly ionic."
Would you recommend using Green Wash as a stand alone biocide, then?
If one were to test it out, w/o bleach in a small spot, wonder how long for it to show some results?
Has anyone use GW as a standalone?
vic

Absolutely Vic. Green Wash works great stand alone and shows results of dead and disappearing algae within a few weeks.

AC