Stealth DC only charger + AC Inverter Set-up -- Please help! - Certified SoftWash Roof Cleaning

Josh Agadoni · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

Stealth DC only charger + AC Inverter Set-up -- Please help!

AC Lockyer · Administrator

Josh,

Here are pix of a similar install. Sorry I have been on the road.

AC

AC Lockyer · Administrator

Here are some shots of the batter bank we were installing today.

AC

Josh Agadoni · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

I was able to finalize my Stealth DC charger set up in my toolbox, so here are some pictures of the set up and and a few descriptions about the process...I'm going to be explaining this with the electrical novice in mind, since that is what I am. Hopefully everything is clear and I don't miss something, but feel free to ask questions and I'll try and help the best I can. AC and others I'm sure will know things that I don't (the power of the network!).

1) I cut two pieces of 3/4" plywood and attached them to the toolbox to mount the systems to. One for the battery back and AC inverter, one for the Stealth DC charger which needs to be mounted on a vertical surface for venting/cooling.

2) Routing the cables from the starting battery to the charger and from the battery bank to the SW pump system probably took the most time. The Stealth DC charging system comes with all the cables you need other than the ones to go from the battery bank to your SW pumps. All the cables that come with the Stealth DC charging system are color coded as well as tagged on each end of each cable so you know exactly where they need to go and which end goes where. The cables that were meant to go from the starting battery to the charging system were just barely long enough, it would've been nice to have a little more wiggle room. I wrapped them in a protective sleeve because I decided to route them down through the engine compartment, through the back of the wheel well, and along the top of the chassis to get them back to the bed where the toolbox is mounted. The sleeve will protect from heat, dirt, rocks, etc. that could damage the wiring. I then routed the cables up between the cab and the truck bed and drilled a hole through the plastic plug in the bed and through the side of the toolbox to reach the Stealth charger. I removed the original 4' long power cable that came with my SWS cradle skid and took it to Lowe's, found an exact replacement cable in a 25' spool, bought the same ring terminals and some shrink wrap tubing and I had what I needed to make the new power cable that would run from the battery bank to the pump system. I have an 8' bed and ended up only needing about 15' feet of cable to bridge the gap.

3) I had some thick plastic sheeting in my garage that I laid down on the base plywood for some grip, to protect the wood from moisture, and maybe to help protect things just in case the batteries leak some acid? I dunno, it's probably dumb and unnecessary, but it was there so I did it.

4) Inspired by the pictures AC put up of that other battery bank install I made a wood strip retaining ring around the batteries to keep them from shifting around. I only have 3 batteries at this point but I made space for 4 so I can add another soon.

5) I bought some 12" 4 gauge battery cables to link the batteries together. Non of the auto parts stores around me carried more than one in stock, so I had to have them ordered in. So maybe call ahead to have them order some in for you. For a bank of four (4) batteries you'll need six (6) of these cables. *You want to connect the batteries in parallel, so make sure you're connecting positive to positive and negative to negative (see pictures). The way I understand it, when you connect in parallel you get the same voltage (12 volt) as you would with one battery, but as you add more batteries you increase the available amp hours, so you can power everything for a longer amount of time. If you were to connect the batteries in sequence (connecting pos to neg, neg to pos, etc.), you would have the same amp hours as one battery, but the voltage is multiplied (1 battery = 12 volts, 2 = 24 volts, 3 = 36 volts....).

6) I bought a set of 18" cables to connect the AC inverter to the battery bank. Depending upon where you decide to mount your AC inverter you may need a different length of cable.

7) As I made all my connections with the cables and the battery bank, I tried to distribute my connections across the battery bank to avoid focusing on drawing from just one battery which could cause excessive heat build up. As you can see in the pictures, I connected the Stealth DC charger to the middle battery, the pump system to the first battery, and the AC inverter to the last battery. There may be an even better way to do this, but that's how I have it for now.

8) I bought a Wagan Tech 3000W AC inverter off Amazon because it had the same specs as one that AC recommended that was no longer available. According to AC this inverter may not be able to handle the power needs of the system. The rest of the system worked for a job we did the other day, but I haven't tested out the AC inverter yet to see if it trips anything. I'll let you know. If not this inverter, the next step would be a 4000W, like this one: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00APL78FE/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2BER7DUI14RUU&coliid=I8UUX7TSIT1DZ&psc=1

9) As for the power cable that runs from the battery bank to the pump system, I drilled a small hole in the side of the toolbox next to the Stealth charger and routed the cable along the underside of the bed rail and under the rear cross member of the cradle skid to get it safely to the pump system (Having it up and out of the way means it will be very well protected from any contact with chemicals, sun, and other degrading or damaging elements). Fortunately for me, the Tundra I'm using for my SW rig has some plastic tabs hanging down underneath the bed rail that I was able to zip tie the cable to as it ran along under there (see picture).

Well that's all I can think of for now, hopefully this helps for anyone looking to upgrade their system in this way. Again, anything electrical scares me because there's so much I don't understand and I don't want to fry myself or ruin anything, so if others want to jump in and clarify or add anything I welcome that!

Michael Derose · SoftWash Systems Certified Applicator

Josh very clean install. My only suggestion would be to ad another set of wires from the batteries to the inverter. This will allow the inverter to run cooler and will also allow you to get closer to the watts rating. Other than that nice job.

AC Lockyer · Administrator

Great write up Josh! Thanks for the great effort.

AC

Josh Agadoni · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

Mike, thanks for the guidance! So another set of the same cables and maybe connect them to one of the other batteries in the bank?

Out of curiosity, could the same result be accomplished with one set of thicker gauge cables. Like some 0 or 00 gauge (or bigger) full copper?

John Aloisio · SoftWash Systems 5-Star Professional

Thanks for the info Josh. Very nice setup and pics.

Mario Ciottariello · SoftWash Systems 5-Star Professional

Looks good . A couple things you might want to add . Any hole you made that a wire passes through should have a grommet so the wire does not chafe. I would also add a fuse at the battery. I would also color code the wires on the battery Obviously just positive should be red. And like Mike said double up on the last two wires going to the inverter. Last thing how are those batteries grounded to the truck. I don't see a heavy gauge ground wire.

Bob Riddick · SoftWash Systems 5-Star Professional

A really nice job, Josh. Great of you to share your step by step. Always want to make sure you seal any holes drilled through the truck body or box.

Troy Layman · Lead Tech

Awesome job Josh, and excellent write up!

If you are going to redo/color code the black wires to black and red wires you may want to check and see if there is a Batteries + Bulbs store locally. They usually have some cables for connecting batteries, although I am not sure if they are color coded or just plain black cables.

For connecting batteries in parallel (positive to positive and negative to negative), the voltage remains the same and the amp hours/reserve capacity adds with each battery. So if you had (5) 12 volt, 100 amp hour batteries you'd end up with a 12 volt, 500 amp hour reserve capacity.
For connecting batteries in series (positive to negative), the voltage increases and the amp hour/reserve capacity remains the same. So if you had (2) 6 volt 230 amp hour golf cart batteries connected in series, you'd end up with 12 volts with a 230 amp hour reserve capacity.

In #7 you distributed the connections across the batteries...not being comfortable with electronics I can see why you did this but with all of the positive connections shorted together by the connecting cables and the same for the negative connections, all the points are electronically the same point no matter where you draw the power from. The only difference would be the amount of current going through the connecting cables, which shouldn't be a concern.

If you are looking at horsepower ratings and inverters, 1 horsepower = 746 watts.

As Mario said, you'll need to put some grommets where ever your wires go through anything to protect them from rubbing and causing a short circuit. You should also add a fuse so if for some unknown reason a short does develop the fuse will blow out and protect your equipment.

Josh, are these new batteries (as in all 3 were bought recently)? I see that one has a sticker showing 4/15 so it is obviously a new battery, but the other two have stickers saying 10/14. As a general rule of thumb batteries are perishable goods so you should try to buy batteries that are no more than a month old. If that is not possible, do not go past 3 months tops, and only connect identical batteries in series or in parallel. Batteries are not always kept at a full charge in stores and they tend to drain some over time. The problem this causes is called sufation, or crystals forming on the metal plates. These crystals forming on the plates reduce the amount of surface area the electrolyte has to work and reduces the amount of amp hours or reserve capacity of the battery. Two primary maintenance issues with batteries that cause them to go bad before the end of their full service life is (1) not recharging the batteries as soon as possible after depleting them (~24 hours maximum), and (2), not keeping the proper level of electrolyte to cover the tops of the metal plates. Uncovered plates sulfate almost immediately. 85% of batteries that are replaced before the end of their service life are failing early due to these two issues. The optimum choice would be to find "dry" batteries where the store adds the electrolyte when you buy the battery, thus avoiding any issues with keeping the batteries charged until sold, but it is difficult to find a store that still does this. When you use or drain a battery it starts to form these sulfur crystals, but they are soft and when you promptly recharge it forces the crystals to dissolve back into the electrolyte. When you have batteries that have sat around for months without being properly charged, the crystals get harder and they will not dissolve, no matter how you try to recharge the battery. These crystals also cause a battery to read at a higher voltage than it normally would so the smart rechargers stop charging the battery too soon. When you are charging a battery and it is near fully charged you will see little bubbles rising to the surface of the electrolyte if you pull the caps off. Always wear some form of eye protection when removing the covers. I don't know how cold it gets where you are but the third issue to watch for battery maintenance is not to allow your batteries to freeze over the winter.

For others buying new batteries, not all are labeled with the obvious month and year. Some are labeled with a single letter and single number, such as C5, which would mean it was build in March, 2015. A=January, B= February, and the 5 = 2015. Using this method the letter "I" is usually skipped.

As a general statement, AGM (absorbed glass material) and maintenance free batteries are nice and can give you a little better battery life or reserve capacity, but if you keep an eye on your electrolyte level and don't let it get low, and only refill it with distilled water (never tap water), and recharge your batteries each day when the jobs are done, you'll usually get more bang for your buck with the cheaper batteries. The reason you never want to use tap water in batteries is tap water will have minerals in it that will degrade the electrolyte and weaken the battery. Also, there are tons of different types of batteries, but there are (for the most part) only three companies manufacturing batteries in the US. Deka, Johnson Controls and I forget the third, and people just put different stickers on them and sell them at different prices. I've seen two stores selling the exact same battery, one selling for $120 and the other store selling for $360, and both had the exact same warranty. The batteries weighed the same, but one appeared to have a higher reserve capacity rating because different companies use different standards for rating. Some rate based on (1) amp draw, some use the number of hours it takes to drain a battery using a 25 amp draw, some use 23 amp draws, and others tell the maximum current draw that the battery can sustain over 20 hours. Some give you a reserve capacity rating but don't tell you if they were using a 25 amp draw or 23 amp draw. Golf cart batteries may give you a 75 amp draw rating as golf carts tend to draw more amps anyway. So as you can see, it is easy for a company to manipulate the numbers to make two identical batteries look different. One item you really cannot get around with deep cycle batteries is almost 100% of the time the heavier the battery, the better the reserve capacity as you have more metal surface area to react with the electrolyte with more plates.

Another general statement on deep cycle batteries is that you should buy the greatest amount of reserve capacity as you can within reason. If you have a 50 amp drain during the workday and have 100 amp hour reserve, you've depleted your battery to 50% which is about as far as you want to go, although you can go as far as 80% if you absolutely have to. If you had a 50 amp drain during the workday and have 200 amp hour reserve you've only depleted your battery to 75%, and this set up will allow your batteries to last a lot longer because you're not abusing them as much. Of course having the Stealth Charger will recharge your batteries in between jobs and on the way back home or to the shop giving you a lot of wiggle room and preventing you from depleting your batteries as much so you will get more service life out of your batteries using the stealth charger, as well as longer run time on job sites.

Below is an excellent reference for all things battery related.

jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq7.htm
support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/5964-battery-sulfation

Eric Hemming · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

Great info. Thank you!

Josh Agadoni · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

Gosh, you guys are fantastic! Thank you all for your time and thoughtful responses and analysis. Clearly I have a few more measures to take in making this install final. I'll put some more pictures up once I've got these additional items checked off.

One specific question for Mario (or anyone else who can speak to this), where would you attach your grounding cable for the battery bank?

AC Lockyer · Administrator

Wow now we have a great definitive thread on this!

AC

Michael Derose · SoftWash Systems Certified Applicator

You could attach it to the skid or a paint free metal spot on the truck.

Mario Ciottariello · SoftWash Systems 5-Star Professional

I would use an 8 or 6 ga wire back to the trucks starting battery and or directly to the chassis. It is very necessary to have a good ground. I know this sounds like overkill but that's how I do things .

AC Lockyer · Administrator

Mario Ciottariello wrote:
I would use an 8 or 6 ga wire back to the trucks starting battery and or directly to the chassis. It is very necessary to have a good ground. I know this sounds like overkill but that's how I do things .

Yes grounding issues are the biggest problem with 12 volt systems.

AC

Troy Layman · Lead Tech

Josh,

For someone who claims to be "inept when it comes to electrical stuff", I'd welcome you to put together my equipment any day! It looks like you're doing an awesome job to me.

As Mario said, when it comes to grounding and protecting wires with grommets and against chafing, overkill is king. Intermittent shorts or faulty grounds are usually not the most simple fix in a vehicle, so if you ever start getting any odd glitches in your electrical system or lighting or radio or anything with your truck, try disconnecting your connections to your stealth charger and see if the problem goes away. That will at least separate the work you did from the truck and give you a starting point for troubleshooting. Take that with a grain of salt - my electronics degree is about 25 years old and I very rarely worked on vehicle electronics.

Jeffrey Kirby · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

AC Lockyer wrote:
Josh,

Here are pix of a similar install. Sorry I have been on the road.

AC

AC,

What is the black box next to the stealth charger? I do not have one of these with my stealth charger

Nevermind. got it. The AC portion of the AC/DC charging system. Will order that one for the next truck/skid setup

-- Edited by Jeffrey Kirby on Monday 7th of September 2015 06:10:23 PM

AC Lockyer · Administrator

Jeffrey Kirby wrote:
AC Lockyer wrote:
Josh,

Here are pix of a similar install. Sorry I have been on the road.

AC
AC,
What is the black box next to the stealth charger? I do not have one of these with my stealth charger

Nevermind. got it. The AC portion of the AC/DC charging system. Will order that one for the next truck/skid setup

-- Edited by Jeffrey Kirby on Monday 7th of September 2015 06:10:23 PM

:)

AC

Jeffrey Kirby · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

OK. I am having some issues with the inverter, just installed. I have a Gen III skid.

I have my 4 battery pack connected with 4 gauge connectors. The DC stealth charger is installed & working well. I connected the inverter (exact one that AC has in the photo) with the same 4 gauge connectors. When we connect the booster pump, it runs. When we close the valve, the pump shuts off. When I open the valve again to run the pump, it trips the inverter.

(It gives an error code, and I am just realizing that I did not record that code).

Troy Layman · Lead Tech

Jeff,

How strong is your booster pump? 3/4 HP, 1 HP, more? Are you running anything else off of the inverter? is your system grounded?

Is this the inverter you have? If so at $188 it blows away the prices of any 3KW inverter on Amazon.

www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--3000-watt-inverter--10884567

I linked the 800 number and e-mail if you need to contact them directly.

PRODUCT QUESTIONS
1 (800) 262-8464
ProductAdvice@WestMarine.com

AC Lockyer · Administrator

Jeff,

Another China catastrophe. That inverter rocked for a year and now the new ones coming out same part number are not working up to snuff. Harbor Freight has a 5000 watt that seems to be working well.

AC

Troy Layman · Lead Tech

AC Lockyer wrote:
Jeff,

Another China catastrophe. That inverter rocked for a year and now the new ones coming out same part number are not working up to snuff. Harbor Freight has a 5000 watt that seems to be working well.

AC

Dang...guess that explains the price shift.

Jeffrey Kirby · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

Troy--That is the inverter I bought (actually 2 of them) at that price.

AC--thanks for the phone call. We will be in a holding pattern for a bit while there is a little research & testing going on

Jeffrey Kirby · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

When connecting the AC adapter, do you connect both sets of charging wire to 2 different batteries? Those 2 batteries would already be connected via the cables connecting the batteries into a parallel battery bank.

Tim Teed · SoftWash Systems 5-Star Professional

I will be at my shop saturday. text me if you a me to send you a photo.

Troy Layman · Lead Tech

Jeffrey Kirby wrote:
When connecting the AC adapter, do you connect both sets of charging wire to 2 different batteries? Those 2 batteries would already be connected via the cables connecting the batteries into a parallel battery bank.

If the batteries are already connected in parallel (positive to positive and negative to negative) the connection to one set of batteries would be all you need. When batteries are connected in parallel, technically any point along the positive or negative sides would be the same point. As long as you have the correct gauge wires, adding a second set of wires isn't required.

Eric Hemming · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

How many hours is every one getting out of there booster pump running off batteries? I finally set up my Stealth charging system with 3 100 amp hours batterys running a 3/4 HP flow teck. I am only getting about 2 1/2 hours..

Eric Hemming · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

Also, how long should the stealth charger take to re-change the 300 amp bank. Thanks!

Tim Teed · SoftWash Systems 5-Star Professional

try plugging your charger in while using the booster pump. The manufacturer said you can do that.

Michael Derose · SoftWash Systems Certified Applicator

Isn't that defeating the purpose of having an inverter? I would suggest leaving the truck running or adding 2 more batteries.

Mario Ciottariello · SoftWash Systems 5-Star Professional

Your going to need a lot more batteries. 7 group 29s or 8 group 27s should get you through a days worth of work if they are fully charged in the morning. Your also going to need more stealth chargers.

Eric Hemming · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

Thanks for the info guys I was hoping I was doing something wrong.

Mario Ciottariello · SoftWash Systems 5-Star Professional

Your welcome

John Aloisio · SoftWash Systems 5-Star Professional

Or..with the money spent on 8 group 29 batteries, you can just buy one small inverter/generator, the size of a battery and a half. Never worry about a power source again.

Michael Derose · SoftWash Systems Certified Applicator

We carry a generator too. We use a hitch carrier and strap it in. We don't even have to move it to run it.

Josh Agadoni · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

John, can you give any links to small inverter/generators you'd recommend that would fit the power needs?

Mario Ciottariello · SoftWash Systems 5-Star Professional

m.powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu2000i

This will run one 3/4 hp pump.

Chad Eneix · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

I have had that same unit for years, works great. I have a buddy that has a Generac one very similar, and it seems to work well also, and is a little cheaper.

John Aloisio · SoftWash Systems 5-Star Professional

Thanks Mario..I was out all day fishing at the Mouse's House with my son.

Josh, that is the one we run.

-- Edited by John Aloisio on Sunday 27th of March 2016 08:51:59 PM

Tim Teed · SoftWash Systems 5-Star Professional

check home depot online they had one for around $350. I will buy one shortly

Josh Agadoni · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

That's great, guys. Thank you!

Troy Layman · Lead Tech

Here is a Generac model that is 800 watts. If you plug this into the stealth charger or battery charger it would more than offset the drain on the batteries by the 3/4 HP pump. Remember that 1 HP = 746 watts, and 3/4 of that is 560 watts, and since the 3/4 HP pump isn't running 100% of the time, that would offset the additional drain for $320. I'm assuming you're not looking at anything bigger since you already have the stealth charger for charging the batteries between jobs? The next larger Generac is $499 & 1,400 watts.

www.generac.com/all-products/generators/portable-generators/ix-series/ix800 - 800 watts - $319

gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/portable-recreational-power/ix%20series/0196520-a-ix800-5791.pdf?ext=.pdf - Spec sheet

www.generac.com/all-products/generators/portable-generators/ix-series/ix1400 - 1,400 watts - $499

gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/portable-recreational-power/ix%20series/0196530-a-ix1400-5792.pdf?ext=.pdf - Spec sheet

Eric Hemming · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

Great info. I am going to buy a small generator and plug it into the Stealth system. Space and weight is limited on my truck and the small generators make very little noise. . Thanks!

Chad Eneix · SoftWash Systems Authorized Professional

I would get the 1400 watt one if you have the space and budget. You never know what you might need it for in the future. I had one of each of the Hondas, a 2000/1600 and a 1000/800. I could not run one good size power tool (sawzall) with the smaller one.

John Aloisio · SoftWash Systems 5-Star Professional

The small cheap ones do not have enough AMPs to power the booster pump. It will not work properly.

Troy Layman · Lead Tech

The reason I listed the smaller unit is the original question Eric posted was to extend the life of his batteries while using the booster pump, which if the generator is used to recharge the batteries during use, the smaller unit would do this. If you're connecting items directly to the generator itself without using the battery bank and larger inverter to buffer the amp draw, I'd definitely go larger. Plus a larger unit would run easier as the load would have a lower demand on a larger unit, so you should get a longer life cycle out of a larger unit, so purchase what size and quality you can afford.

Make sure to read plenty of the reviews on the models you're looking at though. The Generac reviews I was reading were most either all 4-5 stars, or 1-2 stars.